Adobe Creative Cloud

Sections New Your

Photography

#CREATIVE EDIT

Deleted User

12 years ago

Anybody an early adopter of this subscription service yet?? Care to share your experiences and conclusions?

Frédéric Verhelst (Papafrezzo)

12 years ago

Yes, would be nice to know.

I am currently on Photoshop CS5 and that still suits me fine, but I might consider upgrading to CS6 now that there are still boxes around.

Creative Cloud does not really sound very appealing: much more expensive, plus a lock-in.

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Me too, I am on Photoshop CS5. Upgrading to CS6 is probably of limited use, because Camera Raw 7 will not be upgraded for new cameras/lenses any more. This will only happen in the CC (ACR 8). Lightroom 5 could be a workaround, but then you would have to render in LR with limited compatibilty in CS5 or CS6 (no opening as smart object).

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

I just came from the NAPP website - oh there are many upset people. This is not NAPP"s fault of course but people want them to advocate more. I suspect they have been advocating continuously as it is not in their best interests.

It is now my understanding that if you own CS 6 (even as an upgrade) you will be able to subscribe for $10.00 a month but only to Photoshop. An upgrade to Lightroom five will probably run about $80.00 but this is not certain.

It also appears that if you spring for the $20.00 a month plan and you will get both Photoshop and Lightroom but you must own Photoshop CS 4, 5 o6..and I think Lightroom ??? not sure.

On CC the RAW dialogue - is completely different..as far as I can see from the postings there.

So many things are unanswered at this point. If you subscribe to CC for Photoshop..and then you no longer want it..you will not longer have access to your photos..so who owns the copyright? You? Try and get the photo...

Scott Kelby is not recommending the entire suite for the big bucks if you only use it as a Photographer. he believes the price is not worth it..

However if one does the Math...the cost is almost double of what it was. AT $10.00 for the first year and $20.00 for the second year (per month) in 18 months you will have spent...$240.00. An upgrade would have cost you about $150.00 or less with the NAPP discount..and as time passes your costs increase..So at the end of two years....at $20.00 for the second year...you now have spent $360.00 ...instead of the $150.00.

It is not a great deal for the consumer, but a wonderful deal for Adobe.:))

So...if you are not planning on the CC...better get CS 6 quickly...its going fast...and I doubt they will be making more discs.

I have not had a chance to watch all of this yet..but supposedly this explains everything in detail...The last episode is on the CC with an Adobe Rep there..

http://kelbytv.com/thegrid/

I am not terribly pleased with how Adobe has gone about this..and I do not seem to be alone.

I believe people would have accepted this more easily had they made the prices more comparable.

Phyllis

Deleted User

12 years ago

then no information about the cost after that.

Pretty sure somewhere it states that if you take the special offers for the first year, after that the subscription reverts to the "standard pricing" at that time. a.k.a. $49/mo currently.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

This is helpful to understand further..

http://scottkelby.com/2013/my-take-on-adobes-announcements-yesterday-at-the-max-conference/

One very important question not answered yet, but I am in the process of finding out is this...

If you buy the larger subscription and pay out the $49.00 (probably it will go up after the first year) but what worries me is downgrading...

Can you downgrade?

I learned the hard way that sometimes with Adobe this is not always possible. For example, I bought CS the first...and it had PS,Illustrator and In-design. I realized I never used any but Photoshop...so when CS 2 arrived I wanted only to purchase Photoshop CS2, and it was not possible.It was an all or nothing deal.

I was fortunately because my copy of Photoshop before CS was new enough to be able to upgrade on that serial number and not the CS serial number...but if I had not had that..I would have had no choice. Either get the Suite again..or buy Photoshop at 700.00. Not a good thing and it was never mentioned anywhere. So this is a question I will find out about for sure..

Also...all he prices ..the $50.00 deal could be considerably more after a year...and now you own nothing..and have this monthly or annual expense of $600.00 or more a year...and even without a price increase $1200 a year..for what?

Also the storage that comes with it is very limited. So after you use that up- then what do you do?

Many unanswered questions.

Phyllis

Deleted User

12 years ago

Can you downgrade?

Also the storage that comes with it is very limited. So after you use that up- then what do you do?

Many unanswered questions.

Phyllis

As for the downgrade. I think you can pay for whatever subscription you want, whenever you want. They are also supposed to offer month to month, you just pay more per month. This will be very handy for folks that only need the full suite for a short time. SO, say you sign up for PS & LR only in the beginning, I think that is $19 a month. But then you get this big idea or job that requires more, you can up the monthly to the full suite for a short time and then go back. Pretty sure it can work that way now.

As for storage, why would this concern you at all. The storage is for folks working collaboratively on the a common set of files not for you as an individual working on your own files. Your files would be stored locally just like they are now.

Ian Munro

12 years ago

Hi Guys,

I have just recently bought a 27" iMac with all the goodies and realised that I couldn't afford CS6 outright. Giving the fact that NIK software is now only £99 I took the plunge and went for adobe single app. This means I get CS6 for £17 per month. So far I am very happy with it and everything is superfast on my new set up. That along with NIK has made me happy and I can'rt speak highly enough. :)

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Once you are in you are locked and - in Adobe's view - more likely to accept higher fees. You won't be able to downgrade if you haven't already purchase an eternal licence for CS6. Furthermore, ACR will not be updated to new cameras and lenses; one reason more to stay in the cloud (and accept rising montly fees).

I still have CNX2 for raw conversion and CS5 for further editing, and I will stay with it as long as I work (I am a hobbyist) with my current gear. But I sincerly hope that Adobe's move into the cloud will encourage competitors to offer alternatives for the large segment of serious amateurs. If you are willing to learn different editors, there are even alternatives for free like RawTherapee (an excellent, but quite complicated raw converter) and GIMP (which should get 16bit in the near future).

jean pierre delmur

12 years ago

Une fois que vous êtes vous êtes enfermé et - du point de vue de Adobe - plus enclins à accepter des tarifs plus élevés. Vous ne serez pas en mesure de déclassement si vous ne l'avez pas déjà acheter une licence éternelle pour CS6. Par ailleurs, l'ACR ne sera pas mis à jour de nouvelles caméras et objectifs; une raison de plus pour rester dans le nuage (et d'accepter la hausse des frais mensuel). J'ai encore CNX2 de conversion RAW et CS5 pour une édition ultérieure, et je vais rester avec elle aussi longtemps que je travaille (je suis un amateur) avec mon équipement actuel. Mais j'espère sincèrement que le mouvement de Adobe dans le nuage encouragera les concurrents d'offrir des solutions de rechange pour le segment des grands amateurs de graves. Si vous êtes prêt à apprendre différents éditeurs, il ya même des solutions de rechange pour libre comme RawTherapee (un excellent, mais assez compliqué convertisseur RAW) et GIMP (qui devrait obtenir 16 bits dans un avenir proche).

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Quel-est le but de cette traduction qui n'est pas tout à fait correcte? Par exemple, je ne me considère pas un amateur de graves, mais un amateur de la photographie.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Mais j'espère sincèrement que le mouvement de Adobe dans le nuage encouragera les concurrents d'offrir des solutions de rechange pour le segment des grands amateurs de graves. Si vous êtes prêt à apprendre différents éditeurs, il ya même des solutions de rechange pour libre comme RawTherapee (un excellent, mais assez compliqué convertisseur RAW) et GIMP (qui devrait obtenir 16 bits dans un avenir proche).

Quel-est le but de cette traduction qui n'est pas tout à fait correcte? Par exemple, je ne me considère pas un amateur de graves, mais un amateur de la photographie.

Hi Jean Pierre and Thomas

Can you please write your posts in English. If you want to write in another language then please translate it for the rest of the audience here who many not speak the language you are writing in.

This is an International website and we have so many countries involved that it would be impossible not to have one official language. Thanks for your cooperation.

Phyllis

Forum Moderator

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Jean Pierre's post is a translation of my previous post, and I was asking what the purpose of his translation was. He may have posted it by error.

Jacek Poplawski

12 years ago

Adobe Product Manager Tom Hogarty stressed that Adobe has, 'no plans to make Lightroom subscription-only at any point in the future.' The statement, made in light of the overwhelming response to Adobe's Creative Cloud announcement last week, was made during a Google+ Hangout today in which both Hogarty and Lightroom PM Sharad Mangalick responded to audience questions.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/15/adobe-lightroom-5-beta-google-hangout

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

Last week Adobe introduced the Photoshop for Photography program in that existing owners of Photoshop can get a deal on a Photoshop Lightroom bundle for $9.99 a month. You have to sign up by the end of the year, but this is not an introductory offer.

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

Marc Brousseau

12 years ago

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

its only available the week of Sept 16th same time LR 5.2 is being released, at this price it is now worth it.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

I just jumped on the cloud last week...and so far I keep falling. Having some difficulties with updates..and I have to call them tomorrow. I will ask about this....thanks for posting..

Phyllis

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

This new deal won't be available until September 17. At that time current creative cloud members can call Adobe and have them switch you to this new offer.

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

its only available the week of Sept 16th same time LR 5.2 is being released, at this price it is now worth it.

It starts that week, but the low price is available until December 31.

Adrian Donoghue PRO

12 years ago

Are there any 'must have' tools on the latest PS versions that aren't in CS5? if not I think I'll just wait until it's absolutely necessary

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Adrian,

I have CS 6, which does have a variety of tools that CS 5 does not have. The most important is probably a better version of Camera Raw, which has made a difference in my using it more frequently.

However, I still have not understood how it all works.

I had CS 6 which I still have...I downloaded it again, but I already had it..and for the life of me I don't see anything new on it...but I am still looking...I mean new over and above the CS 6 I had. However, I want to add that I could be very wrong. I will ask this question..when I call...

Then there is the Creative Cloud which is separate. I can see that it has all the 'parts' of CS 6 Extended which I did not have, and I believe (not sure) the ability to edit video. It also has new features which CS 6 does not have as far as I can see and it is now callled Photoshop CC. Not Photoshop CS 6.

It would seem to be that if you do not already have CS 6 then it becomes a very good deal for the 9.99 as it includes not just an update but the extended version.

The biggest issue I have had is 'where to start'....the amount of training information is overwhelming. And yet..nothing to just say how to get started..It is very odd. I do have access to NAPP and there was some help there..but what I received does not look like the trainer's interface on the NAPP site..

So I need to call....If I cannot figure out what to do with it all before the 30 days...I will get rid of it.

I forgot. The most major advantage I can see about the CC is that you can access it from anywhere you are at. Think of it as a portable Photoshop and Lightroom or whatever programs you purchase..and you can use both Windows and Mac systems to access it. You can sync anything you do on the cloud to any other hardware you have that it accepts..ie phones, i-pads etc. You can also have your work public or private...so you can get feedback from others...in live time...

And they will keep update it...

On this page in addition to the extras you would get when received CS 6 you will also get what is in the video on this page 'top new features."...

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop.html

I hope it helps.

Phyl

Adrian Donoghue PRO

12 years ago

Thanks for that feedback Phyllis, I have read about those changes to ACR, I wonder whether they will make much difference overall.

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

I am still working with CS 5 including ACR 6.6 and Nik Collection. I read that ACR 8 made much improvements in rendering the camera profile (Nikon D700 in my case) and is no equal to Nikon's own rendering in Capture NX2. But for RAW-conversion, Lightroom 5 has the same engine as ACR 8. For using CS 5 in combination with LR 5 you need to render in LR 5 and you won't have the full smart object compatibility anymore. I think when the time will come for a new body, I will then opt for the latest LR and continue using CS 5 for the limited number of pictures that require it.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Spoke with Adobe today.

This deal that Greg has mentioned is indeed an outstanding deal.

If I have been told the truth, by a knowledgeable person today , then it is not an introductory deal. The price will not go up in the future. Also you get 20 gig space whereas before it was just a few. And you get the latest version of Lightroom 5. You also have access to on-line sharing, accessing your work from anywhere there is Internet service. You also will receive regular updates to both programs. Probably the most significant of the deal is that you receive CS 6 Extended.

Yes you can order it starting September 17th...and I was told that it will be available until December. You must have at least CS 3 to qualify

The cost $120.00 a year plus any tax. Previously regular updates to Photoshop alone cost between $125.00 to $150.00 about every 18 months. With Lightroom and these other deals included it seems like a no-brainer on a financial level. I should also mention that if you cancel before 30 days you will not be charged - you will get a full refund. If you cancel after that you will pay 50 percent of the cost or a year. Therefore, the most you stand to lose on this deal is $60.00 if you should drop it before the year is out.

I was not able to get all the technical support answers I needed and will have to call back for that.

I am not sure why this happened - perhaps it was not marketing well, and they need customers.

One thing seems certain at this point. They will not be upgrading CS 6 in the future. This has some potential difficulties for new cameras and new OS. So maybe they will change this also. :) Who knows?

But it seems like an excellent deal now at this point.

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

If make some good points and this may work well for you.

However, if I understand correctly you will still upgrade Lightroom which costs about $79.00 every ??? Not sure but probably about the same as Photoshop.

Now if you are not interested in having the 20 gig of cloud space, or the sharing of portfolios, or some of the web tools, or the extended version of Photoshop with on-going improvements and updates, and also not interested in having access from anywhere to your files on a PC and a Mac, not interesting in syncing files to other devices, then probably the extra $40.00 a year might not be worth it to you.

However, for those who use Photoshop on -going it sure seems like a good deal. Of course how well it will work is another question...but now we do not have much to lose.

Phyl

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Here in Switzerland, I haven't seen the new Adobe offer yet. Should it be available here also, the price will certainly be 1.5 or 2 times more than US prices as it is the case with the current CC. With my education version of CS5 I would not qualify anyway for the new deal. I don't have LR yet, but will probably switch from Capture NX2 to LR when I buy a new camera.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Yes Thomas...it is more..

22.00 Swiss with VAT...

for Students and Teachers.. and

28.00 for an individual.

I feel bad now.

We don't have VAT...but then Thomas 40 million people plus have no health care.....or we pay a lot for medicine and health care. So maybe it evens out?

Still I feel bad.

Phyllis

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

Probably the most significant of the deal is that you receive CS 6 Extended.

Phyllis

The version of Photoshop you get with this offer is Photoshop CC extended not Photoshop CS 6. Photoshop CC (CC stands for creative cloud) is what is going to be developed and updated and this offer includes all the ongoing updates to Photoshop CC. Photoshop CS 6 will not be developed any more other than bug fix updates and updates to Camera Raw, though it's anyone's guess how long they will continue.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Greg..

This is what I received...and I believe the only thing which will change next week is that Lightroom will be added and additional GBs of storage space.

I received Creative Cloud.

Which is like the Host - all the programs sit in.

When you open it - you can install all the programs you paid for. Then you will be offered updates to those.

CS 6 (not extended) was part of the offering. I have no idea why since I had it already...but it was there to install and so I did. I do not see anything need within that program.

Photoshop CC was there to install -and I did and since then have received three updates.

There were many new things in there for me ...the biggest being all the features that came with Photoshop CS 6 Extended.which i did not have. There are also new filters and a painting section which is more advanced...an I am sure as I look further I may find more.

Then within the Creative Cloud itself..there are many other free programs...I have installed only some of those.

What I am not sure of it is this. If you do not currently own CS 6 will you actually get the program as I seemed to? I do not know.....

Are you certain you will not get it?

I think that the only way the Cloud will succeed is if they charge less, as they are doing now.

Of course you can buy all the programs...now too.

Photoshop CC is lovely and with Lightroom and the other extras is is worth $10.00 a month..I believe.....do you agree?

Of course...we do not know what the future holds....

Phyllis

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

The $9.99/month deal is now live on Adobe's site for existing Photoshop CS3 or later customers:

https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

The $9.99 deal is so good, that you should take advantage of it if you can before it expires! There has been so much talk about CC. After using it now for a while, I can understand why it's a subscription. Adobe isn't sitting on their laurels, but they are working hard to put out new features in all their products.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Just to let you know that today The CC I had changed over automatically to the new offer for Photographers.

I did not need to do anything.

Suddenly, on the CC menu the Lightroom icon changed from "try" to "install" It installed the latest version.

If you use Lightroom this is now an excellent deal and it is offered as permanent.

It is a shame it is not available at such a good price for those outside the US. Maybe this will change.

I look forward to all the new updates over time.

While initially I was very skeptical about it - now I think it becoming a bargain. Maybe they have heard their customers. :)

Phyllis

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Do the Nik plugins (Nik Collection) still work as plugins in Photoshop CC with automatic creation of a new and adjustable layer?

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Yes Thomas they all work for me - nothing changed.

I learned today...that it is not expensive for people outside of the US. It is virtually the same. It is explained in this link..

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

Scroll down and you will see the prices.

Lightroom is part of the package. You won't pay extra..

I was wrong ....what i said earlier was for the old deal.

Right now there is the new deal. You get it all.

Here is what I do not know. If you have PS CS 5...when you get the cloud will you go to ver 6 or stay with 5. I think Chuck will know the answer to this question.

It seems like a good deal now.

Phyllis

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

If you take advantage of the cloud offer, you will get Photoshop CC, not CS6 or CS5. There are so many new features in PS CC and a lot more on the way.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Chuck ....

What I do not understand is this.

I had CS 6.

Now I have CS 6 - they are updating it every day - fixing bugs I think.

Photoshop CC seems to be CS 6 but Extended...plus all the new features...they will bring soon...

Tell me...since this is all new to me...what should I read first? I am seeking something really really simple just to explain the basics.

I just opened Photoshop CC and NONE of my plugins are there? They are all in CS 6. Do I have to install them all again into CC....

I think what has been missing for me is an overview that goes beyond just selling the product. I watched the NAPP tutorial from the Kelby training..and mine screen looks different..is it JR ...

This is what I was going to write to you about. The best way to start.

As far as I can see i can still work in CS 6, save things in PSD. I have not saved anything yet from Photoshop CC but I guess the extension is different? Any direction will help. ;)

Thanks,

Phyl

Sarah Mawdsley

12 years ago

I learned today...that it is not expensive for people outside of the US. It is virtually the same. It is explained in this link..

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

Scroll down and you will see the prices.

Hi Phyllis

I was interested to see that link, because when I tried to register for the EU pricing I was quoted EUR 12.99 per month (before VAT) and after VAT it goes up to EUR 16 per month.

I will now dig a bit deeper to see if I can get the EUR 9.99 per month price not EUR 12.99 !

So thanks for the link.

Sarah

Sarah Mawdsley

12 years ago

OK please ignore my previous post - I must have misread the INCL vs EXCL VAT part.

It's EUR 12.29 INCLuding VAT. That's a lot more reasonable.

Piet Flour PRO

12 years ago

As far as I can see here in Belgium and Netherlands you get adobe photoshop CC for 22 euro a month. this is a big big difference with 9,9 dollar a month. And then for lightroom you have to pay extra !

What I don't know is if you are using a dutch version, and living in Belgium, ... is it possible to make the step to an English version if the price is lower ?

If we could get it also for 10 euro / month I think I would be tempted very hard.

the world is not equal for all of us :-((((((

Piet Flour PRO

12 years ago

Just doing a search with new in CS6 and you'll find a lot in You tube

I just opened Photoshop CC and NONE of my plugins are there? They are all in CS 6. Do I have to install them all again into CC....

I think what has been missing for me is an overview that goes beyond just selling the product. I watched the NAPP tutorial from the Kelby training..and mine screen looks different..is it JR ...

This is what I was going to write to you about. The best way to start.

As far as I can see i can still work in CS 6, save things in PSD. I have not saved anything yet from Photoshop CC but I guess the extension is different? Any direction will help. ;)

Thanks,

Phyl

[/quote]

Phyllis

As far as the plug-ins from Nick

open the plu in map from CS6 ... You'll see there is a map "google" containing all the Nik plg-ins.

Probably this map is not inyour plug-in map of photoshop CC.

Just copy it , and paste it in the new plug-in map.

And if you have other plug-ins ... the same. Open both plug-in maps and compare.

Ben van der Sande PRO

12 years ago

Hallo all

I think you have to use the "adobe extension manager CC".

I had plugins tk actions from Tony kuyper to set over in CC. It was very easy to do.

Piet Flour PRO

12 years ago

I learned today...that it is not expensive for people outside of the US. It is virtually the same. It is explained in this link..

http://blogs.adobe.com/creativelayer/introducing-the-photoshop-photography-program/

Scroll down and you will see the prices.

Hi Phyllis

I was interested to see that link, because when I tried to register for the EU pricing I was quoted EUR 12.99 per month (before VAT) and after VAT it goes up to EUR 16 per month.

I will now dig a bit deeper to see if I can get the EUR 9.99 per month price not EUR 12.99 !

So thanks for the link.

Sarah

just found this link too ... it's including VAT; and including lightroom (even if you don't need it. Without lightroom it would be 9,9, but it seems not possible.

Anyway; it's getting affordable, certainly if in plus you get a pro behance site also to use, and 20 GB cloud space.

are there members here using this BEHANCE site ???

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi Piet,

Thank you for the plug in info. I have never used the map you speak about. HoweverI do still have the DMG file from when Google took over Nik. I have to look for it. I have the DMG file for all my plug ins..I was hoping not to have to do this. I just wanted to be sure that they belonged in there. :)

The price.

Yes..it seems you found the new link.

We have to pay tax here too on the 9.99 price. I do not know how much because my first bill has not yet arrived.

Yes, it is very inexpensive now.

Also consider this. if you join before you leave for your trip you will have 20 gb of back up storage for your files.. as you travel. I mean like a additional safety net to your other plans. If you have access to a computer and wi fi you can also look at some of your files inside Photoshop...Mac or Windows takes both. And if you do not like some you could delete right away.

It is very handy for travel I think.

Behance you do not get a website, but you do get access to the Behance site where you can do many things..I don't even know what they all are.

You can use it to create a site and then only pay when you publish the site. You can look here...

http://www.behance.net/

or here...

http://www.behance.net/prosite/examples

You can also use it just to share your work I believe. If I want to show you a file..I can make it public...I have to learn more about this.

I should mention that they are offering fonts too...I think there may be a download ready now for that.

If I need the map info I will send you an OE mail.

Thanks for your help.

Phyl

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hallo all

I think you have to use the "adobe extension manager CC".

I had plugins tk actions from Tony kuyper to set over in CC. It was very easy to do.

Thank you Ben. I have never used this tool...but if I need some help with it may I contact you?

Thanks Phyllis

Ben van der Sande PRO

12 years ago

Hallo all

I think you have to use the "adobe extension manager CC".

I had plugins tk actions from Tony kuyper to set over in CC. It was very easy to do.

Thank you Ben. I have never used this tool...but if I need some help with it may I contact you?

Thanks Phyllis

Phyllis

That is OK.

This you can use for all your plugins I think, I used it for these T Kuyper actions

Ben

If you have installed Adobe Extension Manager CC (downloaded from Adobe), you may be able to install the TK-ACTIONS panel using the "Install TK-ACTONS panel" file in the ZIP folder downloaded after the purchase of the tutorials and actions. This file is an Adobe Zip Format Extension Pack file designed to work with Adobe Extension Manager. Here's the procedure:

Close Photoshop.

Open Adobe Extension Manger CC. (Be sure to download and use the CC version of Adobe Extension Manager. The CS6 version will NOT work for installing the panel in Photoshop CC.)

In Adobe Extension Manger CC, invoke the menu command File > Install Extension.

When the file selection widow opens, navigate to the "Install TK-ACTIONS panel" file. It's located in the "Installation" folder in the download. Select the "Install TK-ACTIONS panel" file to install with Adobe Extension Manager CC.

Click "Accept" when the window with the disclaimer appears.

Restart Photoshop and click through the menu commands: Window>Extensions>TK-ACTIONS to open the panel in Photoshop.

If installation with Adobe Extension Manger fails, then manual installation is the next option, and it's relatively easy:

Close Photoshop.

Find the Photoshop "Panels" folder in the computer's directory.

For Windows, the path is as follows: "C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Photoshop CC (64 Bit)\Plug-ins\Panels"

For Mac, the pathway is: Macintosh HD > Applications > Adobe Photoshop CC > Plug-ins > Panels.

INSIDE the "Panels" folder, create new a folder called "TK-ACTIONS" (do NOT include the quotation marks).

Copy the "content" folder (located inside the "Installation" folder in the download) to this new "TK-ACTIONS" folder. Do NOT open the "content" folder and copy the files inside the folder. Copy the entire "content" folder to the "TK-ACTIONS" folder.

Restart Photoshop

Click through the menu commands: Window>Extensions>TK-ACTIONS to open the panel in Photoshop.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi Ben,

Well, first let me thank you for writing out all this information for me. I must say I am on information overload ...not from your instructions...just generally...

I am working with a Mac. Your instructions are very clear.

I checked and I can see the Panels folder..exactly where you said it would be. Until this moment I had never heard of a panels folder..

I think I am a bit lost at the moment.

One of the problems is that I still do not have a good conceptual understand of what Photoshop CC is...I thought I understood but clearly I do not.

I am not sure if Chuck left link for me...or if he saw my request. I think i must start there..to understand how CC works with CS 6. I don't even know what file extension is..for CC.

Like Chuck you sound very experienced with this. When it came out I read about it first at NAPP and just decided not to get it as I was buying a new camera and I did not want to have to learn both things. However.when it went on sale I could not resist.:))

When I find myself at the point of understanding some basics...I will get back in touch with you. I really value all the info..Thank you so much. This is why I love 1x. :)

My best,

Phyllis

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

I saw your post, Phyllis, but with so much going on in this thread, I'm not sure what it is you want to know?

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

I saw your post, Phyllis, but with so much going on in this thread, I'm not sure what it is you want to know?

Believe me I can easily understand.

Let me approach it like this.

The first time you heard of CC and you wanted to find out what it was - what it did

and how it worked...where did you go for that information.

What I am seeking are links that really describe what Photosohp CC is. I have watched some of the beginning videos...but they have no information on how to get started. I need something like a manual or a guide or a Pdf document..

I found out how to make folders inside the Cloud but that is about it. So before I can ask intelligent questions I need to know....what is is ..that I don't know.

I have searched Adobe.com..but really don't see much there..

Should i be looking more a the NAPP stuff ..would not be better.

Once I understand what it is that I bought...then I am sure I will have questions..

Any suggestions?

I am leaving the computer until tonight now...so no rush or me..:))

Thanks for remembering me..

Phyl

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

Photoshop CC is just like any other version of PS. It's just that it is now updated more often with new features and bug fixes. I'm not sure with the single app of PS, but installing the Creative Cloud app, will allow you to update PS when there is a new release. an icon will show stating there there are updates.

If you have any questions about new features, let me know, and I'll try and answer them.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Thank you Chuck I am sure I will have questions...soon. :)

Best,

Phyl

Deleted User

12 years ago

OK....who didn't see this coming:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2425215,00.asp#!

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

OK....who didn't see this coming:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2425215,00.asp#!

I tried the link, but got an error message.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Thomas,

Did you receive a letter from them?

If your account is one of the ones which they hacked into you will receive a letter.

I got mine already. :((((

Here is the information ...I think they will be paying for a year subscription to monitor accounts..which were hacked....but only in the US. One thing you can do immediately is to change all your passwords...that you think might be associate with the User ID from Adobe....

http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/policy-pricing/customer-alert.html?promoid=KHQGF

I hope you are one of the lucky ones..

Phyllis

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

Thanks Phyllis, I was just wondering what the content of Clyde's link was. I am not a customer of Adobe CC. I am still using PS CS5 and don't intend to subscribe for Photoshop CC.

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

I received the email last night and they made me change my password. They also suggested I change my password on any other sites that use that same user id and password. I use a password management application so I never use the same password twice, but it is something to be aware of if you use the same password on multiple sites.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Thanks Phyllis, I was just wondering what the content of Clyde's link was. I am not a customer of Adobe CC. I am still using PS CS5 and don't intend to subscribe for Photoshop CC.

Adobe said Thursday that it recently suffered a massive security breach which compromised the IDs, passwords, and credit card information of nearly three million customers.

"Our investigation currently indicates that the attackers accessed Adobe customer IDs and encrypted passwords on our systems. We also believe the attackers removed from our systems certain information relating to 2.9 million Adobe customers, including customer names, encrypted credit or debit card numbers, expiration dates, and other information relating to customer orders,"

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

The security breach was the bad news.

The good news for me is that I finally got to watch some videos...and so far for the photography end of the improvements in Photoshop CC Camera Shake is just plain awesome. Made my day.:)

Phyllis

Deleted User

12 years ago

Things just got a bit cloudy in LA...$29/mo for 1st year, can downgrade to photography bundle then if I want or pay $49/mo going forward.

I needed to be in sync with Premiere Pro for working with my son on a few editorial things coming up.

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

Adobe has temporally removed the requirement that you need to have Photoshop CS3 or later to be eligible for the Photoshop for Photography program. All people are now eligible for the $9.99/month deal even if you never owned photoshop or lightroom.

You need to sign up by December 2 to take advantage of the offer.

https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

You need to sign up by December 2 to take advantage of the offer.

https://creative.adobe.com/plans/offer/photoshop+lightroom

Thanks for posting Greg. I was just about to do it. :)

This may effect many people here who spoke of not having a newer version of Photoshop.

Tell me are you enjoying the CC?

I have not really had a need to use the Cloud. However, I have really enjoyed the Camera Shake feature. and really like having Camera Raw as a filter. I do not do 3D work but I have also enjoyed playing with the Extended part of the program.

And you?

Phyllis

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

I like CC, but I tend to use a lot of the new features. While you may not use all the features, it's great having them there when you do need them. If you wait around for features that you think are worth the upgrade, you may miss out on getting this great deal.

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

Phyllis, I think the $9.99/month prices is fair for what you get so I am content with the creative cloud. I've just being using Lightroom and Photoshop and haven't really tried out the Behance portfolio or the online cloud storage. I have no real need for it.

That being said, I would still prefer to purchase a perpetual license for photoshop and then decided when to upgrade. I don't care much for the rental model for many reasons. But there is no choice in the matter, and with out a viable alternative to photoshop Adobe can sell their software as they please.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi Greg and Chuck..

Well, I am pleased thus far myself even though I don't use the Cloud. I think for so many people this would be the best part - in terms of an addition...to the program. You can access your work from anywhere.....there is an internet connection...

I hope they continue to add new features to CC in order to make it worth our while to keep it. :)

Phyllis

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

with out a viable alternative to photoshop

There may be viable alternatives in combination with LR als RAW converter.

Perfect Photo Suite 8 by onone or Photoline

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

Phyllis, Adobe is working on more cool features such as Perspective Warp:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-technology-sneaks-2013/sneak-peek-perspective-warp-in-photoshop/

I'm sure there are more neat features, but we'll have to wait for Adobe to announce them.

Annette Flottwell

12 years ago

Is it really a good deal?

why is it in euro so much more than say in USD or Malaysian Ringgit? 30 RM are 7.50 euro or 10 USD and not euro 12.29 .

Adobe still sells their products at rip off price in europe, which they have always done. I still use and own PS4 and LR 4, both bought on ebay at a more reasonable price than adobe.

Why would a photographer need 3D, warp and 3d brushes?

Why does Adobe force me to use their site in French now, you can't even opt out any more?

Why can't you simply go for the normal, english version without 3d and gimmicks?

No thanks Adobe, You have lost me with your upgrade policy long ago, second hand will do for me. And I keep the freedom of choice.

Yes I have tried LR5, it didn't even start on my Mac, update your OS first. Again, are we all to be caught in a never ending upgrade spiral?

Personally, I am quite happy with LR4 and CS4 . I get stupid messages from time to time that I should upgrade this or that, I found a RAW update for the D800 and never needed to upgrade PS.

There is another workaround DXO lets you also convert all sorts of newer camera RAWs into tiff if you want to keep the PS you like.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Phyllis, Adobe is working on more cool features such as Perspective Warp:

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/adobe-technology-sneaks-2013/sneak-peek-perspective-warp-in-photoshop/

I'm sure there are more neat features, but we'll have to wait for Adobe to announce them.

Thanks Chuck...that was amazing...Adobe usually has WOW features...

Some time ago, I had seen J. Kost talking with ?? (can't remember) about future tools which seemed impossible..)) But I am sure they will do it.

I have never been disappointed with Adobe software...

Phyl

Deleted User

12 years ago

Wow that thread update was quite a contrast!!

annette, My approach to software updates is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". If your software does the functions you like and need then use it. I recently went to CC because I needed to be on the same version of Premiere Pro that others I will be working on have, my son included. If not for that I probably would have stayed put with CS5 Production Bundle and LR4 myself.

As for as feature development in Adobe products, yes they do a very good job of bringing new features to the table quite frequently. But the large majority of them don't really apply to my workflow and to the workflow of a huge portion of photographers and motion graphic designers.

I also use a program called Flame in my professional work and much like Adobe their recent focus has been towards 3D integration and high end compositing tools that the movie industry uses heavily.

I recently did this conversion with Flame using their new lighting package. Very cool but not very practical to the work we do here at NBC or to my personal workflow. I will say that my son and his buddies thought it was "badass"!!

http://editinggame.pixu.com/photo/180889/180693

Photoshop is far more important to the Creative Edit crowd that the more traditional photography crowd. If Nik plugins would work with smart objects in LR I don't think I would use PS for photography much at all. About all LR needs to be an end all app for photographers is layers and smart object approach to external editors like Nik SEP.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

why is it in euro so much more than say in USD or Malaysian Ringgit? 30 RM are 7.50 euro or 10 USD and not euro 12.29 .

Adobe still sells their products at rip off price in europe, which they have always done. I still use and own PS4 and LR 4, both bought on ebay at a more reasonable price than adobe.

Why would a photographer need 3D, warp and 3d brushes?

Why does Adobe force me to use their site in French now, you can't even opt out any more?

Why can't you simply go for the normal, english version without 3d and gimmicks?

No thanks Adobe, You have lost me with your upgrade policy long ago, second hand will do for me. And I keep the freedom of choice.

Yes I have tried LR5, it didn't even start on my Mac, update your OS first. Again, are we all to be caught in a never ending upgrade spiral?

Personally, I am quite happy with LR4 and CS4 . I get stupid messages from time to time that I should upgrade this or that, I found a RAW update for the D800 and never needed to upgrade PS.

There is another workaround DXO lets you also convert all sorts of newer camera RAWs into tiff if you want to keep the PS you like.

Hi Annette,

I don't have answers to most of your questions, but it seems you are happy with what you have ended up with and really that is all that matters, as it is a personal decision. If you can purchase what you like on EBAY, then you have succeeded in attaining what you want.

The issue of price has a simple answer - it concerns the VAT taxes you have to pay in France and other European countries. We do not have this particular tax here in the US.

Your other concerns probably should be sent to Adobe Systems, maybe they have some answers for you - especially being able to see the site in the language you would prefer.

Sometimes a photographer is also an illustrator, and having both in one program saves them money or maybe they just find it convenient?

My own decision to subscribe to CC was based primarily on getting a better financial deal than the initial announcement of this program indicated it would cost. I also enjoy the new features, and look forward to them.

In the end, it is a personal decision like any purchase we make. It will not suit everyone.

Phyllis

Jacek Poplawski

12 years ago

What is your opinion on new Adobe CC 12.29 euro offer?

I am seriously considering it - currently I own LR4 and upgrade to LR5 costs 72 euro and in compare 12*12.29 is not that much (I can't afford Photoshop CS6).

Are there any known problems with CC except that it's "renting" not "buying"?

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

The special offer (50%) is valid for only one year. Afterwards, you have to pay the regular price or cannot use the software any more.

Jacek Poplawski

12 years ago

The special offer (50%) is valid for only one year. Afterwards, you have to pay the regular price or cannot use the software any more.

Yes i know, I am asking are there any known problems with using CC, like something doesn't work, or requires internet access or I can't install on second computer, etc.

Greg Forcey

12 years ago

The special offer (50%) is valid for only one year. Afterwards, you have to pay the regular price or cannot use the software any more.

Yes i know, I am asking are there any known problems with using CC, like something doesn't work, or requires internet access or I can't install on second computer, etc.

The software requires internet access to download and install and update. Afterward it only requires an internet connection every 99 days in which it will phone home and make sure you are still a paying customer. You do not need internet access to run the software from day-to-day. The creative cloud subscription allows you to install the software on two computers.

Annette Flottwell

12 years ago

To me 10 USD are 7.37 euro.

If you add 19,6% VAT that is 8.87. Not 12.29

So we pay 39% more than residents of Singapore, Malaysia or the US. WHY?

Adobe refuses to sell you the US version + VAT.

147 euro will buy me not only a Lightroom upgrade one day but also one year 1x membership. better spent I think :)

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

Scott Kelby wrote a blog about the new PS deal and answered a lot of questions, including why it's more expensive in Europe.

http://scottkelby.com/

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Scott Kelby wrote a blog about the new PS deal and answered a lot of questions, including why it's more expensive in Europe.

http://scottkelby.com/

Thanks for sharing that Chuck.

It pretty much answers the questions in this thread.

So, it appears that people still have 8 days to decide or change their minds.

Chuck...one more thing..it seems to me that those who do not have recent versions of Photoshop, or never bought Photoshop because of financial reasons are actually get the best deal. They did not have that initial $700.00 expenditure plus any upgrade expenditures.

BTW I had no trouble switching from the initial plan from NAPP where you got only Photoshop for the 9.99 and then after a year it would go up...to the Photographers deal.

Thanks again,

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

The special offer (50%) is valid for only one year. Afterwards, you have to pay the regular price or cannot use the software any more.

Thomas,

There is so much misinformation out there, and there is some good reason for it, as many changes happened quickly.

Initially to buy just Photoshop CC it was 19.99 a month for one year and then it would go up after one year.

Then it was changed to a special offer for 9.99 a month for Photoshop CC, and it would go up to 19.99 after one year.

Then a new offer for Photographers was made for 9.99 a month with Lightroom 5, and 20 gb of storage and Beyonce included. You needed to have at least CS 3 for this offer. Also, this offer also made it clear that this was not an Introductory price, meaning that they were not going to automatically double the subscription fee after one year.

Now yet another offer is up...and it includes all of what I just wrote in the last paragraph, with one exception. Now you no longer need to even own Photoshop. No version...you could have nothing and still be eligible.

This last offer is good until Dec 2,2013.

If you read this blog in Chuck's post you will have more detailed info. I think it will confirm this information...

_______________________________________________________________

This is from the Adobe Website..

Renewal

After the first 12 months, we will automatically renew your contract based on the current price of the offering.

_________________________________________________________

I realize that you are not interested in the CC and are happy with CS 5. I wrote the above for those who are considering it..as I would not want them to believe that it will go up immediately - since that has now changed. I am sure it will go up at some point, but then very few things go down in price.

CS 5 is a very good version.

Jacek Poplawski

12 years ago

Thanks for the help, I bought it.

Annette Flottwell

12 years ago

.....

As for Adobe, they have offices in the UK and all over Europe, and staff in all those locations, and I imagine their offices cost at least double what they do here. So does their electricity, gasoline, staff salaries, insurance and of course their taxes have to be dramatically higher, and their overall cost of doing business has to be through the roof over there as well. Yet, their customers expect them to eat all those extra costs and charge the same amount that they do here. Unfortunately, that’s not generally how business works. Extra operating costs are passed on to the customers to offset the cost of doing business in that country. Just’ sayin’.

....

Oh yes Really?

I earn about 1000 euro/month for a full time job.

Renting a room in the US would be about my monthly salary.

Everything dearer? Americans who visit France keep telling me how cheap everything is. And no we don't drink a lot of Coke , we got Bordeaux :)

And anyway, nobody asks them to run an office in Europe. If everything is chaeper in the US, they should keep their offices there. What about Singapore then? Their GDP is certainly 10x higher than ours, why do they get it cheaper.

Sorry, as I often explain to my clients, I have to pay VAT and trsansport on car parts.

where is the transport on a creative cloud?

But I'll stop ranting, as I said I rather subscribe here for a year and if anyone of you CC buyers would like to sell a CS5 normal version please let me know.

I wouldn't mind that context sensitive fill.

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

I wouldn't mind that context sensitive fill.

Why don't you try the Perfect Photo Suite by onone for USD 80.-- as a standalone version, USD 130.-- for the Lightroom and standalone. I don't have it myself, but on their site they claim to have content-aware fill technology, layer and masking functions.

http://www.ononesoftware.com/products/suite8/

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

[

I realize that you are not interested in the CC and are happy with CS 5.

Yes, I am happy with CS5 because I don't use it much. Almost all of my editing is done with Capture NX2 and the Complete Nik Collection, which can be accessed from Capture NX2 directly. CS5 I only use for perspective corrections.

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

Actually Phyllis, the new user is getting a great deal. This is one of Adobe's reasons for current price promotion: to help students who didn't have a previous version of Photoshop.

Thomas Herren

12 years ago

I received the offer from Adobe. It is CHF 14.04 per month (USD 15.--, so 50% more than US price). After twelve month there is an automatic subscription renewal to the then applicable price.

I don't intend to fall into this trap.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Since the December 2 $9.99 deal for PS and LR combo is expiring in 2 days, I decided to investigate whether I want it or not. And having CS5 - I don't. If you buy this combo, in a year you must continue with this combo. The only workaround is to cancel the combo and buy just PS anew.

In addition to what was written in this thread I finally "mined" an answer to this question: "Will I be able to see my psd files if I cancel my subscription?" The answer is - yes, but I doubt how it's implemented will satisfy anyone here: https://creative.adobe.com/share/0fd06fa0-280a-4b89-9ef9-a20f427c3d53 . That's how you will be able to see your files, only clicking through your layers and turning them on and off. That's it...

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

If you have CS5 or CS6 and subscribe to the Cloud, you can quit and still use your perpetual license versions. You don't have to repurchase them. As far as viewing your images. If you keep them on your computer, you can still open them with old versions of PS. The only issue you will run into is if the file contains layers that are CC specific, such as a layer with Field Blur. In those cases, you will be prompted saying that there are unrecognized data on those layers and they will be rasterized. I have opened up lots of CC files on the older CS6 with no issues other than what I just mentioned. I'm also still using my perpetual version of CS6 along with my CC version.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Why would you be concerned about seeing your files? Don't you save them on your local computer?? I would never save anything to the Adobe Cloud unless I wanted to share with somebody or if I wanted to have them available if I was out of town. But ALWAYS save them locally too. You don't really get much storage with it anyway.

If you cancel just go back to using CS5. I have them both installed now and they both work fine. They can't take that one away from you.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

If you cancel just go back to using CS5. I have them both installed now and they both work fine. They can't take that one away from you.

I am not concerned about still physically having my files after hypothetically canceling my subscription, but I was concerned on how to work on them or how to open them. I understand Chuck's explanations, and I saw these explanations online as well, but if you never had Photoshop, canceling subscription puts you in trouble, unless as you told me on FB, you save your work as TIFF files (and that has its own limitations).

Deleted User

12 years ago

Well, just did a backwards compatibility check from PS CC to PS CS5. All is fine. Nik SEP 2 opens same in both and shares Custom Presets fine.

Not really much limitation to TIFF files. It's one of the oldest and most universally supported file formats in the imaging biz.

The concern about folks who have never used PS before is no different in CC than any other version every was. As with any software that has a proprietary file format, once you start you need to continue to have the software to open the files. Or you need to have a different software that will import the files from the other program. There are several programs out there that will open PSD files. Nothing unique about PS CC in this context.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Anna,

So, you have understood now that you will be able to use CS 5 even if you discontinue Photoshop CC. ? I just want to be sure.

You will just not be able to use the new CC features.

The biggest issue I see is not having CS 6. The Camera Raw feature in CS 6, is so much better than CS 5,and CC gets even better. You will see a big improvement in your RAW files using 6 or CC.

There is one other option to consider to save money in the future. If you join NAPP right now it is on sale for &79.00 instead of $99.00...They offer many discounts of all kinds...and you could theoretically get back much of your 79.00 and I will add..if it does go up in price NAPP often has more purchasing power to offer its members discounts on Photoshop products. For example before Adobe altered their 19.99 deal to 9.99 if you were an NAPP member you would have gotten it back then or 9.99. I cannot predict the future...but it quite possible they might offer future deals on Adobe products.

You also get many other benefits...You can check out their website.

www.photoshopuser.com and even get a free copy of Photoshop User.

Good luck with your decision.

Phyllis

Deleted User

12 years ago

LR 4 and above has the same raw converter as CS6.

Chuck Uebele

12 years ago

There are so many improvements from CS5 to CS6! Just a few are much better stitching for panos, much faster liquify, better and faster painting, much improved 3D. I'm sure there are a lot more.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

If you have subscribed to Creative Cloud this podcast is worth subscribing to. There is good information here...

http://tv.adobe.com/show/creative-suite-podcast-photographers/

For Piet..

Is this what you were referring to - in our mail?

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/the-complete-picture-with-julieanne-kost/adobe-camera-raw-as-a-smart-filter-in-photoshop-cc/

BTW she is one of the best ever teachers. She speaks fast.. :)

Phyllis

Piet Flour PRO

12 years ago

If you have subscribed to Creative Cloud this podcast is worth subscribing to. There is good information here...

http://tv.adobe.com/show/creative-suite-podcast-photographers/

For Piet..

Is this what you were referring to - in our mail?

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/the-complete-picture-with-julieanne-kost/adobe-camera-raw-as-a-smart-filter-in-photoshop-cc/

BTW she is one of the best ever teachers. She speaks fast.. :)

Phyllis

thanks Phyllis

A Almulla

12 years ago

I have CS3 but have been doing a lot of my simple editing with Aperture and like many waiting till Aperture 4 gets released.

For a while thought about getting CS6 but was holding back till I got a better computer which I have recently done. With the Photographer bundle from Adobe at $10 per month that seemed mighty tempting when factoring in the cost of getting CS6.

Unfortunately what Adobe doesn't mention is their offer for "everyone" isn't really for everyone and thats not even clear on their website. Some regions don't have access to CC and Adobe hasn't replied if those regions would get it and if they will ever get the "everyone" offer.

Sorry posting this here but giving a heads up to others who may have faced difficulty with Adobe's CC service they aren't alone.

Time to pick one of the many replacements out there.